Where are the 2e retro clones?

While it is no secret that I am a fan of 3rd edition Dungeons & Dragons and a huge fan of Pathfinder, I also have a fondness for 2nd edition AD&D. Sure I've got issues with THAC0 but it isn't like it is hard to use, I just never liked it. To me it never felt as natural as Ascending AC and BAB, so even when I was playing 2e I didn't like THAC0.

Of course every edition and pretty much every RPG has things about it that I don't like. I think that this is true of nearly all gamers. If it wasn't then there probably wouldn't be any houserules and I've never met a gamer who didn't houserule something.

So even though I had and still have my issues with 2e, it is one of my favorite editions. For me some of the best supplements ever written for D&D were done during this era. To be realistic and before I get blasted for making such as statement I also realize that there were some truly terrible books put out during this edition and that there have been great books in every edition. I just personally think that 2e had more of them. There are tons of books in 2e that I still enjoy reading and have used, in some capacity, for nearly every fantasy RPG game I have run over the years.

All of the chatter around the net about the recent events/decisions at WotC have gotten me to thinking about a lot of different things. One of them is the OSR movement. For the most part the guys that have worked on all of the retro-clones have done a brilliant job of using the OGL to keep older editions alive. Well most of the older editions except 2e.

There seems to be more retro-clones out there for the various versions of Basic/OD&D and 1e than I would ever get around to playing. Nearly all of them are top notch, labors of love and my hat goes off to every single person who worked on those games.
That being said, why are there no complete 2e clones?

I know that I'm not the only person who still likes 2e and yes I know that the lack of a clone does not prevent me from playing with the books I already own or buying more 2e books on Amazon/ebay etc. The purpose of the retro-clones, as I understand it, is to enable publishers to produce new material with the OGL that is compatible with older editions and thus keep them alive with better organized and usually better/more clearly written rules. So I ask again where is the 2e love?

I knew that someone, somewhere had to be working on a 2e clone and I was right. Unfortunately there only seems to be 2 and they're not completed yet.

First I found Myth and Magic by New Haven Games There is a starter kit for this that runs through level 5, which I have downloaded. There is also playtest versions of the rules the allow you to play up to level 10 that you can access if you register with the forums. I've literally just started reading the starter kit and will probably post my thoughts on it soon.

Secondly I came across Adventures Dark and Deep (AD and D, gotta love that) by Greyhawk Grognard. What little I have read claims that this is not a retro-clone but an entirely new game. I put it here because every time I inquired about 2e clones on the boards this one came up. However, since I've just downloaded the rules I have no personal opinion on this one yet,  but I'll post something once I'm done reading it.

On a side note Dragonsfoot is a good place to find some material if you are needing stuff for a 2e game as well as stuff for other older editions.

So that is all I have found so far. While the two I have found seem to show promise I can't help but wonder why there aren't more 2e retro-clones and if they do exist where are they? Thinking on this topic has also made me consider what I'd like to see in a 2e retro-clone.

My number one wish is to have optional Ascending AC & BAB rules like Swords & Wizardry. I'd also like for it to retain the old school feel that S&W, OSRIC and Labyrinth Lord have done such as good job at recreating. Keeping it as compatible with original products as possible kind of goes without saying. Seeing new material produced for the system is the whole reason for doing a retro-clone, IMO. Lastly, I want rules clarity. My main complaint I've heard by many gamers, besides THAC0, is that the rules for 2e could be a bit intimidating for newer players. I want a game I can easily teach to kids or adults that are not already familiar with the game.

I've thought about doing my own retro-clone for 2e, that way I can make it how I want, but to be honest I just don't have the time or gumption to do it. So I can not and am not complaining about the work that has been done so far by others. I'll just have to wait until the games that are in progress are completed and hope more 2e clones are in the works.

I also feel that I have to give a big pat on the back to those that have and are working on keeping older editions alive. Your work is appreciated, even though the sentiment may get lost in the noise caused by the bickering between which clone is better or more "true" as well as the current editions wars, but thanks for what you've done. You've done the fans of older editions a huge favor and deserve our gratitude and respect. Keep up the good work...but if you get some free time I'd really like a good 2e clone.

Old School D&D Still Around(Repost)

I've been in a 2e AD&D mood lately so I thought I would repost this.

I was goofing on the internet, as I am too prone to do when I should be sleeping, and I found some interesting links. I've seen complaints about how WotC took down the links to the older edition products brought up on numerous message boards and blogs and when I stumbled upon this I thought I'd share it.

I don't know if this is a mistake or intentional, but I have tested a few of these links and they worked. I haven't had time to test them all so if some are broken, don't blame me. Perhaps WotC heard fan's cries and decided to be nice, or perhaps this is just some oversight on their part. I honestly don't know. Either way here are some AD&D links for your enjoyment, while they last.

Silver Princess: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20020121x7

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/downloads

Forgotten Realms
Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr1165.zip

The Fall of Myth Drannor: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9558.zip

The Horde: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr1055.zip

Lands of Intrigue: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr1159.zip

Savage Frontier: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9233.zip

Gold and Glory: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9373.zip

Elminster's Ecologies I: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9489.zip

Elminster's Ecologies II: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9490.zip

Four from Cormyr: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9531.zip

Castle Spulzeer: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9544.zip

Cult of the Dragon: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9547.zip

For Duty and Deity: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9574.zip

City of Raven's Bluff: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9575.zip

Calimport: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9589.zip

Arcane Age: Nethretil - Empire of Magic: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr1147.zip

Volo's Guide to the North: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9393.zip

Marco Volo: Departure: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9444.zip

Marco Volo: Journey: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9450.zip

Marco Volo: Arrival: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9455.zip

Volo's Guide to Cormyr: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9486.zip

Vilhon Reach: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9520.zip

Volo's Guide to All Things Magical: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9535.zip

Villain's Lorebook: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9552.zip
The Fall of Myth Drannor: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9558.zip

How the Mighty are Fallen: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9541.zip

Undermountain I: The Lost Level: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9511.zip

Undermountain II: Maddgoth's Castle: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9522.zip

Undermountain III: Stardock: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9538.zip

The North: Guide to the Savage Frontier: http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/thenorth.asp

Endless Armies (FMA2): http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/tsr9340.pdf

Birthright
Blood Spawn: Creatures of Light and Shadow: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Blood%20Spawn2.pdf

Player's Secrets of Hogunmark: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Hogunmark.pdf

Player's Secrets of Muden: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Muden.pdf

The Book of Regency: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/BookofRegency.pdf

The Legacy of Kings: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/BoardGame.zip

The Falcon and the Wolf: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/FalconWolfsingles.pdf

Some other Birthright stuff: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20020121x5

EX1 Dungeonland and EX2 The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20020121x8

Al-Qadim
caravans: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/tsr9459caravans.zip

Corsairs of the Great Sea: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/tsr9449corsairs.zip

Legends & Lore, 2nd edition: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/LegendsAndLore.rtf

The Castle Guide (DMGR2): http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/CASTLE.ZIP

Savage Coast Campaign Setting: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/campaignbook-rtf.zip

Ravenloft
NIGHT OF THE WALKING DEAD: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/notwd.pdf

Ravenloft II: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20020121x9:

Greyhawk
I11 Needle: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/i11.txt

Ivid the Undying: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Greyhawk/Ividform.zip

Map #1 for Ivid the Undying [Dragon #204] http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Greyhawk/Ivid204.gif

Map #2 for Ivid the Undying [Dragon #206] http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Greyhawk/Ivid206.gif

Map #3 for Ivid the Undying [Dragon #208] http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Greyhawk/Ivid208.gif

Description: Ivid the Undying Maps http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Greyhawk/Ivid_Composite_Map.gif

L1: The Secret of Bone Hill by Len Lakofka
text http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/l1.rtf

cover http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/L1_cover.zip

interior maps http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/L1_maps.zip

interior art http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/L1_interior.zip

L2: The Assassin's Knot http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20001229b

S1: Tomb of Horrors http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20051031a

S2: White Plume Mountain http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20051207a

A completely personal opinon about the direction of D&D

Since WotC's recent announcements regarding D&D the blogs and message boards have been buzzing with everything from idle speculation to doom and gloom for the most well known RPG. As someone who has given up on 4e the changes don't really impact me, but I still care about what happens.

Maybe my concern is just because I know that D&D is still the RPG that represents the entire hobby for non-gamers. Perhaps it is just nostalgia and maybe a little brand loyalty, but it actually bothers me that I don't like 4e. I know there are a ton of great RPGs out there and I play and enjoy some of them, but it sucks that I don't like the newest edition of the game I've been playing for over 20 years.


I have several opinions about the direction the brand will take but it is just idle speculation as I know jack shit about what is going on inside the company. A lot of the other bloggers are much more closely linked to the actual RPG industry so when it comes to what might happen, their opinions and speculation are probably much more informed than mine is as an outsider. However, that has never stopped me before.


Personally I think that Hasbro just doesn't care if D&D survives. They won't let the brand go since it is recognized by gamers and non-gamers alike and can be placed on a variety of other products.Even if they never produce another D&D book, the D&D brand will continue to bring in some kind of revenue. At least for a while.

I often wonder why Hasbro/WotC doesn't produce or license more D&D items such as action figures, Hot Wheels cars(everything seems to have had its name/logo stamped on a Hot Wheels at some point), video games (there could be a lot more of them than there have been), D&D versions of nearly every Hasbro game, a D&D expansion for Magic: the Gathering or even a separate D&D CCG (just not another Spellfire, though you had to love the cheesy cards for that game. I bought a ton of them back then)

I see D&D going all digital (video games and DDi) at some point in the future. I personally think D&D as a printed RPG will begin to disappear.  I don't think this will happen in the near future, but it seems to be going this way.

Between Magic and D&D, Magic is likely the money maker and the reason Hasbro even cares about keeping D&D alive is the name. Even people who have never seen an RPG book or held a d20 know the name Dungeons and Dragons. There is money to be made off that name and it is unlikely they will let it go. Which is why my dream of Paizo or Green Ronin buying D&D will never happen.

So while I have absolutely no idea what will happen with D&D there are several things I'd like to see happen. In my opinion printed RPGs may not be the biggest money makers, but I think that the printed products could still be viable. Maybe they won't produce as much money as Hasbro requires, but possibly enough to make keeping a small RPG team around to produce a small amount of product for us to enjoy worth it.

First, I'd like to see WotC renew support and publication of revised versions of all older editions. Doing so would expand the D&D brand by having each edition as its own brand. Classic D&D, Original D&D, Advanced D&D, etc. Each of them could be done by a small team that produces a few supplements each year and they could even allow limited 3rd party support. The money coming in from these may not be huge, but doing so could create a consistent stream of cash by producing products for all editions instead of letting them abandon D&D and play Pathfinder or retro-clones. Bring those gamers back by producing new product for them.I love my Pathfinder and hope Paizo becomes the the premiere rpg company, I also am very fond of many of the OSR publishers, but if I were WotC I would be doing whatever I could to crush them. Pissing off and then throwing away such as large portion of your customer base just seems counter productive to me. Of course I'm not a business major so maybe there is a sound business decision behind this move. I can't imagine what it is but that's just my POV.

Second I'd like for them to keep 4e alive. I may not like the game but there are enough people that do to keep some product moving. Even if only 3-4 new books get produced each year, I don't want the system to die. Since D&D minis is pretty much dead they should license the name to another minis producer like Reaper.

Third I think they should pursue the DDi. I think it is a waste of money but I know plenty of people that like their DDi

Lastly I'd also like to see both a print & digital subscription for Dragon magazine. If they start supporting older editions of the game, the magazine would be able to appeal to a broader range of gamers. I could be wrong, but I don't think that Dungeon mag would be worth bringing back. Not because it would have no use, but because it was too specialized with too narrow an audience.

All of this is just my opinion about what I'd like to see happen with D&D and isn't meant to upset anyone.

Happy Holidays

Just wanted to wish everyone a Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Joyous Yule and a Happy New Year.
I hope this season finds you happy, healthy and among loved ones.

I also hope Santa brings you lots of gaming and geeky goodies to enjoy for the next year.

Learning another language for geeks and gamers

Learning a second language is something I think everyone should do. Which is all nice and good to say, but I have to be honest and admit that I suck at learning languages.

It isn't that I can't learn a language or that it it too hard, I just get bored with it. I barely made it through 4 semesters of Spanish in college, mostly because I didn't want to study. I sincerely want to learn a new language, but I just have a hard time staying focused on it. Currently I'm working on Irish and playing around with German, but much like the 2 years of Spanish I had to take during my undergrad, my heart just isn't in it. The desire it there, just not the focus. However, I may have found a way around this little hurtle.

Being a geek I just can't help but feel drawn to the fictional languages that I encounter in movies, TV shows and books in a way that I'm not with real world languages. I'd love to speak Elvish, Orc, Na'vi, Romulan, or any number of other geeky languages. Unfortunately, you can't take Klingon or Tengwar at any of the colleges in my area. Lucky for me we have the Internet.

During my studies of Irish and German I stumbled upon a great site called Omniglot that contains information about every language I've ever heard of, as well as many more I never knew existed. One day, while perusing the alphabetical list of languages, I discovered that the site also has information about fictional languages. 

 Klingon, Romulan, Atlantean, Tengwar, and, my favorite, Kryptonian are just a few of the fictional languages on the site. Not only does the site have information, including alphabets, for these languages, but also links to other sites with more detailed information.There are even areas that give advice and useful tips for learning languages.

The best tip I've seen so far is to learn a language that you actually want to learn. Which would explain why I'm doing much better with Irish than I ever did with Spanish. I simply have never wanted learn Spanish at any time in my life. I only picked it to fulfill my degree requirements because German wasn't available at that time. Plus my advisor convinced me that it would be more useful than German. Shows what they know because I still can't (under)stand Spanish. 

If you are not wanting to actually learn a language but just find some writing to use in your game you can just use the fictional or magical script sections. There are more than enough authentic scripts here to use in any type of game you run.

Once I found all of these fictional languages on Omniglot, it got me curious about what other resources there are for these types of languages. So I began searching for others.

Besides the ones listed on the Omniglot site, I also stumbled upon a site for learning the Na'vi language heard in the movie Avatar. Learn Na'vi is an amazingly well done site for such a new fictional language. There are literally hundreds of pages of pdfs that can be downloaded, including workbooks and dictionaries to help you learn the language. If you are having trouble learning the language you can just jump on the forums for help. If you have a printer that can do double sided printing I highly recommend printing the pdfs from this site out in booklet form. It makes them much easier to carry with you, while still allowing you to read them easily. Otherwise you are going to be using at least one ream of paper.

If you are like me and prefer to both hear and see the language you are attempting to learn, then you may want to check out the Project Ngaynume podcast. I just found this site and have not had the opportunity to actually listen to the show, so I can't give it a definite thumbs up yet. I will update this post or do another one once I have had a chance to review the show to let you know if it is worth your time. Or you could just check it out for yourself and save us both the time. 

For us Superman fans, Kryptonian, is a language that you probably have wanted to learn for quite a while. If so you should really check out Kryptonian.info. All of the information is on site, with no downloads, but it is still a very informative and well done site.

If you find a language on Omniglot that you want to learn, you should also check out Amazon.com or other booksellers for dictionaries and workbooks. Of course the only ones you are likely to find are for the more popular languages like Klingon and some form of Tolkien's Elven language(s). I got an Elvish Dictionary for $4, which is the total cost with S&H. That's not a bad deal.


Every fan of the Harry Potter books/movies that I know has tried to speak Parseltongue at some point. When my daughter was a few years younger she would hiss at me in her own make-believe parseltongue language. Yes, I did encourage the behavior and yes I sometimes(always) answered back in my own version of the language. Something I think most Harry Potter fans have done at some point.

While not as detailed as the other language sites, The Parselmouth is still a fun little site. Since the language is mostly just a spoken language (snakes don't have hands after all), there are no pdfs to download. Instead you type in the word or phrase you want to say and the site makes an audio translation for you to play. You also have the option to download the parseltongue version of your word/phrase to store on your computer or like me you can use it as a ringtone. I'm not claiming that the parseltongue found on this site is any more "legit" than the hissing my daughter and I did, but it should still appeal to most Potter fans. (Note: for those of you running the current Paizo Adventure Path: Serpent's Skull, this site could provide some really good audio props for your game.)

For you Legion of Superhero fans, and who isn't, there is also a site to learn the Interlac alphabet used in the comics.  It is just a one to one substitution cipher for the English language alphabet, but still could be useful if you are running a LSH game.

Whether you are waiting for the Great Cthulhu to return and wipe out all those non-believers, running a CoC game or a Pathfinder game in the Darklands you may find it useful to learn a little Aklo.

Atlantean is another language you may find useful. Especially if you are running a Rifts campaign.

If you are a Wheel of Time fan like me, you may want to check out these sites to help you learn the Old Tongue. The Complete Old Tongue, Dictionary of the Old Tongue and the Wheel of Time Wiki are some sites I think you will definitely like.


If you are addicted to the Sims,  you may want to learn Simmish to better understand what your people are babbling about.

For those of you that are more inclined to stick with the Tolkien languages you will probably want to check out the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship, Parma Eldalamberon, The Elvish Pronunciation Guide,  the Eldarin Wiki, Duke Universities Elvish Language page, The Council of Elrond, Ardalambion, Fellowship of the Word-smiths or the Elvish Dictionaries. May may also want to check out this site  with various Quenya lessons, or this site with what seems to be some interesting info about Tengwar, or perhaps even this one which seems to have numerous pdfs you can download. Those are just a few of the sites I found for learning the various Elvish and Tolkien languages.

I'm always looking and finding even more sites that focus on learning fictional languages and I will post them as I find them. I'm planning to try my hand at learning Na'vi, Kryptonian or some form of Elvish, so I'll definitely be keeping my eyes open for sites related to those languages. If you happen to know of some really good sites or just want to offer some useful advice about learning a language  feel free to share in the comments.

Giving Thanks

Given that this is Thanksgiving I thought I might as well do a post about what I'm thankful for. Naturally this will be gaming oriented so I'll leave out the obvious, but still true, thanks for things like health, family, job, etc.

1. I'm thankful for Paizo & Pathfinder. This may seem silly but for once it is nice to still have support for my preferred system even though the company that created it moved on.

2. The OGL. Thanks to this Pathfinder exists as do many of the OSR games that I enjoy.

3. Essentials. Even though I am not a 4e fan I like that WotC at least tried to give us a product that not only would appeal to new gamers, but those of us that did not care for original 4e.

4. RPG Bloggers. Even if I wasn't a member I would still follow all of the great blogs that are a part of this network. Many of which I would never have discovered if not for the RPGBN. Even when I'm between groups I can still get my gaming "fix".

5. Green Ronin. Now I finally have DC sourcebooks for one of my favorite superhero systems.

Well that's my list for this year. Hope everyone has a Happy Thanksgiving.

Gaming with the kid

My daughter and I are set to run through another D&D Essentials game this weekend. I'm thinking I may try to get her to run a thief or cleric instead of her standard Slayer. I'd like to run a stealth oriented game and see how she does.

Since she still has issues remembering things like healing surges, I'll probably run a tag along GMPC to help her out from time to time, maybe a thief catcher from the local town watch, a magic user of some kind or an orphan from town that follows her around. I'll try to post a recap of how things went.

Also I just started teaching her how to play Magic: the Gathering. I started playing Magic back when it was first released ('93-'94?) and quit around '98. I think that was around the time Tempest was released. My wife and I had a brief run playing Magic between 2001 and 2002, but she lost interest in it when she quit gaming with me and my group. So I haven't played magic in damn near a decade but managed to talk my daughter into giving it a try this past weekend.

I dug out my cards and let her use one of my pre-made decks. We used core set only because I wanted to keep her first time simple. Besides I prefer the core set anyway. I don't like keeping track of all the weird mechanics that some of the expansions seem to use.

She loved it and so I bought her a deck of 2011 core set(Blue & White) the other day. She has been itching to play ever since. She's also pretty cocky about it, making bold claims that she is going to kick my butt and asking me how I think it will feel to get whooped by a girl. She is competitive just like her mom. Naturally I can't let a teenager talk smack to me in regards to a game I've been playing (off and on) since it was first released so I got her a box of tissues and told her she'd need them to dry the tears after the massive beat down I'm going to give her.

It is all in good fun and she knows I really don't care if she wins, but it's nice to spend time with her and see her enjoying things I enjoy as well. I spent too many years sitting through Winx and Barbie movies and playing kiddie games with her, so I've paid my dues. I also know that since she's entering her teen years it won't be long before parents become the most uncool people in the world. Something to be avoided when possible.

I'm going to enjoy these times I get to game with her and hope that one day(when she's 35-40, has a Phd and a successful career) she'll meet a nice boy that likes D&D and Magic and they'll raise a whole new generation of geeks. Of course I'll expect to be invited over for game night.